Robert Glatter, MD

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Robert D. Glatter, MD: Welcome. I’m Dr. Robert Glatter, medical advisor for Medscape Emergency Medicine. Joining me today is Sandeep Jauhar, a practicing cardiologist and professor of medicine at Northwell Health, a frequent New York Times op-ed contributor, and highly regarded author of the upcoming book “My Father’s Brain: Life in the Shadow of Alzheimer’s.”

We are here today to discuss the rationale for age competency exams for practicing physicians.

Sandeep Jauhar, MD: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Glatter: Your recent op-ed piece in the New York Times caught my eye. In your piece, you refer to a 2020 survey in which almost one-third of licensed doctors in the United States were 60 years of age or older, up from a quarter in 2010. You also state that, due to a 20% prevalence of mild cognitive impairment in persons older than 65, practicing physicians above this age should probably be screened by a battery of tests to ensure that their reasoning and cognitive abilities are intact. The title of the article is “How Would You Feel About a 100-Year-Old Doctor?”

How would you envision such a process? What aspects of day-to-day functioning would the exams truly be evaluating?

Dr. Jauhar: A significant number of people over 65 have measurable cognitive impairment. By cognitive impairment, we’re not talking about dementia. The best estimates are that 1 in 10 people over age 65 have dementia, and roughly 1 in 5 have what’s called MCI, or mild cognitive impairment, which is cognitive impairment out of proportion to what you’d expect from normal aging. It’s a significant issue.

The argument that I made in the op-ed is that neurocognitive assessment is important. That’s not to say that everyone over age 65 has significant cognitive impairment or that older doctors can’t practice medicine safely and effectively. They absolutely can. The question is, do we leave neurocognitive assessment to physicians who may possibly be suffering from impairment?

In dementia, people very often have impaired self-awareness, a condition called anosognosia, which is a neurological term for not being aware of your own impairment because of your impairment.

I would argue that, instead of having voluntary neurocognitive screening, it should be mandated. The question is how to do that effectively, fairly, and transparently.

One could argue a gerontocracy in medicine today, where there are so many older physicians. What do we do about that? That really is something that I think needs to be debated.

Dr. Glatter: The question I have is, if we (that is, physicians and the health care profession) don’t take care of this, someone’s going to do it for us. We need to jump on this now while we have the opportunity. The AMA has been opposed to this, except when you have reason to suspect cognitive decline or are concerned about patient safety. A mandatory age of retirement is certainly something they’re not for, and we know this.

Your argument in your op-ed piece is very well thought out, and you lay the groundwork for testing (looking at someone’s memory, coordination, processing speed, and other executive functions). Certainly, for a psychiatrist, hearing is important, and for a dermatologist, vision is important. For a surgeon, there are other issues. Based on the specialty, we must be careful to see the important aspects of functioning. I am sure you would agree with this.

Dr. Jauhar: Obviously, the hand skills that are important for ophthalmological surgery certainly aren’t required for office-based psychological counseling, for example. We have to be smart about how we assess impairment.

You describe the spectrum of actions. On the one hand, there’s mandatory retirement at the age of 65 or 70 years. We know that commercial pilots are mandated to essentially retire at 65, and air-traffic controllers must retire in their late 50s.

We know that there’s a large amount of variability in competence. There are internists in their 80s with whom I’ve worked, and I’m absolutely wowed by their experience and judgment. There are new medical resident graduates who don’t really seem to have the requisite level of competence that would make me feel comfortable to have them as my doctor or a doctor for a member of my family.

To mandate retirement, I think the AMA is absolutely right. To not call for any kind of competency testing, to me, seems equally unwise. Because at the end of the day, you have to balance individual physician needs or wants to continue practicing with patient safety. I haven’t really come across too many physicians who say, “There’s absolutely no need for a competency testing.”

We have to meet somewhere in the middle. The middle is either voluntary cognitive competency testing or mandatory. I would argue that, because we know that as the brain changes we have cognitive impairment, but we’re not always aware that we need help, mandatory testing is the way.

One other thing that you mentioned was about having the solution imposed on us. You and I are doctors. We deal with bureaucracy. We deal with poorly thought-out solutions to issues in health care that make our lives that much more difficult. I don’t want that solution imposed on us by some outside agency. I think we need to figure this out within medicine and figure out the right way of doing it.

The AMA is on board with this. They haven’t called for mandatory testing, but they have said that if testing were to occur, these are the guidelines. The guidelines are fair and equitable, not too time-consuming, transparent, and not punitive. If someone comes out and doesn’t test well, we shouldn’t force them out of the profession. We can find ways to use their experience to help train younger doctors, for example.

Dr. Glatter: I wanted to segue to an area where there has been some challenge to the legality of these mandatory types of age restrictions and imposing the exams as well. There’s been a lawsuit as well by the EEOC [Equal Employment Opportunity Commission], on behalf of Yale. Basically, there’s been a concern that ageism is part of what’s going on. Yale now screens their providers beginning at age 70, and they have a program. UCSD [University of California, San Diego] has a program in place. Obviously, these institutions are looking at it. This is a very small part of the overall picture.

Health care systems overall, we’re talking about a fraction of them in the country are really addressing the issue of competency exams. The question is, where do we go from here? How do we get engagement or adoption and get physicians as a whole to embrace this concept?

Dr. Jauhar: The EEOC filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Yale medical staff that argued that Yale’s plan to do vision testing and neurocognitive screening – there may be a physical exam also – constitutes age discrimination because it’s reserved for doctors over the age of 70. Those are the physicians who are most likely to have cognitive impairment.

We have rules already for impaired physicians who are, for example, addicted to illicit drugs or have alcohol abuse. We already have some of those measures in place. This is focused on cognitive impairment in aging physicians because cognitive impairment is an issue that arises with aging. We have to be clear about that.

Most younger physicians will not have measurable cognitive impairment that would impair their ability to practice. To force young physicians (for example, physicians in their forties) to undergo such screening, all in the name of preventing age discrimination, doesn’t strike me as being a good use of resources. They’re more likely to be false positives, as you know from Bayesian statistics. When you have low pretest probability, you’re more likely to get false positives.

How are we going to screen hundreds of thousands of physicians? We have to make a choice about the group that really is more likely to benefit from such screening. Very few hospitals are addressing this issue and it’s going to become more important.

Dr. Glatter: Surgeons have been particularly active in pushing for age-based screening. In 2016, the American College of Surgeons started making surgeons at age 65-70 undergo voluntary health and neurocognitive assessments, and encouraged physicians to disclose any concerning findings as part of their professional obligation, which is pretty impressive in my mind.

Surgeons’ skill set is quite demanding physically and technically. That the Society of Surgical Chairs took it upon themselves to institute this is pretty telling.

Dr. Jauhar: The overall society called for screening, but then in a separate survey of surgical chairs, the idea was advanced that we should have mandatory retirement. Now, I don’t particularly agree with that.

I’ve seen it, where you have the aging surgeon who was a star in their day, and no one wants to say anything when their skills have visibly degraded, and no one wants to carry that torch and tell them that they need to retire. What happens is people whisper, and unfortunately, bad outcomes have to occur before people tend to get involved, and that’s what I’m trying to prevent.

Dr. Glatter: The question is whether older physicians have worse patient outcomes. The evidence is inconclusive, but studies have shown higher mortality rates for cardiovascular surgeons in terms of the procedures that they do. On the flip side, there are also higher mortality rates for GI surgery performed by younger surgeons. It’s a mixed bag.

Dr. Jauhar: For specialized surgery, you need the accrual of a certain amount of experience. The optimal age is about 60, because they’ve seen many things and they’ve seen complications. They don’t have a hand tremor yet so they’re still functioning well, and they’ve accrued a lot of experience. We have to be smart about who we screen.

There’s a learning curve in surgery. By no means am I arguing that younger surgeons are better surgeons. I would say that there’s probably a tipping point where once you get past a certain age and physical deterioration starts to take effect, that can overshadow the accrual of cognitive and surgical experience. We have to balance those things.

I would say neurocognitive screening and vision testing are important, but exactly what do you measure? How much of a hand tremor would constitute a risk? These things have to be figured out. I just want doctors to be leading the charge here and not have this imposed by bureaucrats.

Dr. Glatter: I was reading that some doctors have had these exams administered and they can really pass cognitive aspects of the exam, but there have been nuances in the actual practicing of medicine, day-to-day functioning, which they’re not good at.

Someone made a comment that the only way to know if a doctor can do well in practice is to observe their practice and observe them taking care of patients. In other words, you can game the system and pass the cognitive exam in some form but then have a problem practicing medicine.

Dr. Jauhar: Ultimately, outcomes have to be measured. We can’t adopt such a granular approach for every aging physician. There has to be some sort of screening that maybe raises a red flag and then hospitals and department chairs need to investigate further. What are the outcomes? What are people saying in the operating room? I think the screening is just that; it’s a way of opening the door to further investigation, but it’s not a witch hunt.

I have the highest respect for older physicians, and I learn from them every day, honestly, especially in my field (cardiology), because some of the older physicians can hear and see things on physical exam that I didn’t even know existed. There’s much to be learned from them.

This is not intended to be a witch hunt or to try to get rid of older physicians – by any means. We want to avoid some of the outcomes that I read about in the New York Times comments section. It’s not fair to our patients not to do at least some sort of screening to prevent those kinds of mistakes.

Dr. Glatter: I wanted to go back to data from Yale between October 2016 and January 2019, where 141 Yale clinicians who ranged in age from 69 to 92 years completed cognitive assessments. Of those, 18 clinicians, or about 13% of those tested, demonstrated cognitive deficits that were “deemed likely to impair their ability to practice medicine independently.” That’s telling. These are subtleties, but they’re important to identify. I would love to get your comment on that.

Dr. Jauhar: It’s in keeping with what we know about the proportion of our older citizens who have cognitive impairment. About 10% have dementia and about 20% have at least mild cognitive impairment. That’s in keeping with what we know, and this was a general screening.

There are certain programs, like in San Diego, for example, where physicians are referred, and so there’s a selection bias. But this was just general screening. It’s worrisome. I’m an aging physician myself. I want fairness in this process because I’m going to be assessed as well.

I just don’t really understand yet why there’s so much circling of the wagons and so much resistance. It seems like it would be good for physicians also to be removed from situations where they might get into potential litigation because of mistakes and physical or visual impairment. It seems like it’d be good for patients and physicians alike.

Dr. Glatter: It’s difficult to give up your profession, change fields, or become administrative at some point, and [decide] when to make that transition. As we all get older, we’re not going to have the ability to do what we did in our 20s, 30s, and so forth.

Dr. Jauhar: Much of the resistance is coming from doctors who are used to high levels of autonomy. I’m certainly sympathetic to that because I don’t want anyone telling me how to practice. The reason this is coming up and hasn’t come up in the past is not because of loss of autonomy but because of an actual demographic change. Many physicians were trained in the 1960s, ’70s, or ’80s. They’re getting to retirement age but they’re not retiring, and we can speculate as to why that is.

In America’s educational system, doctors incur a huge amount of debt. I know physicians who are still paying off their debt and they’re in their 50s and 60s, so I’m very sympathetic to that. I’m not trying to force doctors out of practicing. I just want whoever is practicing to be competent and to practice safely. We have to figure out how to do that.

Dr. Glatter: The fact that there is a shortage of physicians forecast in the next 10-15 years makes many physicians reluctant to retire. They feel like they want to be part of that support network and we don’t want to have a dire situation, especially in the rural areas. We’re not immune from aging. We’re human beings. We all have to realize that.

Dr. Jauhar: I know that the ACC is starting to debate this issue, in part because of my op-ed. My hope is that it will start a conversation and we will institute a plan that comes from physicians and serves our patients, and doesn’t serve some cottage industry of testing or serve the needs of insurers or bureaucrats. It has to serve the doctor-patient relationship.

Dr. Glatter: In some random surveys that I’ve read, up to 30%-40% of physicians do support some type of age-based screening or competency assessment. The needle’s moving. It’s just not there yet. I think that wider adoption is coming.

Dr. Jauhar: Data are coming as more hospitals start to adopt these late practitioner programs. Some of the data that came out of Yale, for example, are very important. We’re going to see more published data in this area, and it will clarify what we need to do and how big the problem is.

Dr. Glatter: I want to thank you again for your time and for writing the op-ed because it certainly was well read and opened the eyes of not only physicians, but also the public at large. It’s a conversation that has to be had. Thank you for doing this.

Dr. Jauhar: Thanks for inviting me, Robert. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Dr. Glatter is assistant professor of emergency medicine, department of emergency medicine, at Hofstra University, Hempstead, N.Y. Dr. Jauhar is director of the heart failure program, Long Island Jewish Medical Center, New Hyde Park, N.Y. Neither Dr. Glatter nor Dr. Jauhar reported any relevant conflicts of interest.

A version of this article first appeared on Medscape.com.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Robert D. Glatter, MD: Welcome. I’m Dr. Robert Glatter, medical advisor for Medscape Emergency Medicine. Joining me today is Sandeep Jauhar, a practicing cardiologist and professor of medicine at Northwell Health, a frequent New York Times op-ed contributor, and highly regarded author of the upcoming book “My Father’s Brain: Life in the Shadow of Alzheimer’s.”

We are here today to discuss the rationale for age competency exams for practicing physicians.

Sandeep Jauhar, MD: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Glatter: Your recent op-ed piece in the New York Times caught my eye. In your piece, you refer to a 2020 survey in which almost one-third of licensed doctors in the United States were 60 years of age or older, up from a quarter in 2010. You also state that, due to a 20% prevalence of mild cognitive impairment in persons older than 65, practicing physicians above this age should probably be screened by a battery of tests to ensure that their reasoning and cognitive abilities are intact. The title of the article is “How Would You Feel About a 100-Year-Old Doctor?”

How would you envision such a process? What aspects of day-to-day functioning would the exams truly be evaluating?

Dr. Jauhar: A significant number of people over 65 have measurable cognitive impairment. By cognitive impairment, we’re not talking about dementia. The best estimates are that 1 in 10 people over age 65 have dementia, and roughly 1 in 5 have what’s called MCI, or mild cognitive impairment, which is cognitive impairment out of proportion to what you’d expect from normal aging. It’s a significant issue.

The argument that I made in the op-ed is that neurocognitive assessment is important. That’s not to say that everyone over age 65 has significant cognitive impairment or that older doctors can’t practice medicine safely and effectively. They absolutely can. The question is, do we leave neurocognitive assessment to physicians who may possibly be suffering from impairment?

In dementia, people very often have impaired self-awareness, a condition called anosognosia, which is a neurological term for not being aware of your own impairment because of your impairment.

I would argue that, instead of having voluntary neurocognitive screening, it should be mandated. The question is how to do that effectively, fairly, and transparently.

One could argue a gerontocracy in medicine today, where there are so many older physicians. What do we do about that? That really is something that I think needs to be debated.

Dr. Glatter: The question I have is, if we (that is, physicians and the health care profession) don’t take care of this, someone’s going to do it for us. We need to jump on this now while we have the opportunity. The AMA has been opposed to this, except when you have reason to suspect cognitive decline or are concerned about patient safety. A mandatory age of retirement is certainly something they’re not for, and we know this.

Your argument in your op-ed piece is very well thought out, and you lay the groundwork for testing (looking at someone’s memory, coordination, processing speed, and other executive functions). Certainly, for a psychiatrist, hearing is important, and for a dermatologist, vision is important. For a surgeon, there are other issues. Based on the specialty, we must be careful to see the important aspects of functioning. I am sure you would agree with this.

Dr. Jauhar: Obviously, the hand skills that are important for ophthalmological surgery certainly aren’t required for office-based psychological counseling, for example. We have to be smart about how we assess impairment.

You describe the spectrum of actions. On the one hand, there’s mandatory retirement at the age of 65 or 70 years. We know that commercial pilots are mandated to essentially retire at 65, and air-traffic controllers must retire in their late 50s.

We know that there’s a large amount of variability in competence. There are internists in their 80s with whom I’ve worked, and I’m absolutely wowed by their experience and judgment. There are new medical resident graduates who don’t really seem to have the requisite level of competence that would make me feel comfortable to have them as my doctor or a doctor for a member of my family.

To mandate retirement, I think the AMA is absolutely right. To not call for any kind of competency testing, to me, seems equally unwise. Because at the end of the day, you have to balance individual physician needs or wants to continue practicing with patient safety. I haven’t really come across too many physicians who say, “There’s absolutely no need for a competency testing.”

We have to meet somewhere in the middle. The middle is either voluntary cognitive competency testing or mandatory. I would argue that, because we know that as the brain changes we have cognitive impairment, but we’re not always aware that we need help, mandatory testing is the way.

One other thing that you mentioned was about having the solution imposed on us. You and I are doctors. We deal with bureaucracy. We deal with poorly thought-out solutions to issues in health care that make our lives that much more difficult. I don’t want that solution imposed on us by some outside agency. I think we need to figure this out within medicine and figure out the right way of doing it.

The AMA is on board with this. They haven’t called for mandatory testing, but they have said that if testing were to occur, these are the guidelines. The guidelines are fair and equitable, not too time-consuming, transparent, and not punitive. If someone comes out and doesn’t test well, we shouldn’t force them out of the profession. We can find ways to use their experience to help train younger doctors, for example.

Dr. Glatter: I wanted to segue to an area where there has been some challenge to the legality of these mandatory types of age restrictions and imposing the exams as well. There’s been a lawsuit as well by the EEOC [Equal Employment Opportunity Commission], on behalf of Yale. Basically, there’s been a concern that ageism is part of what’s going on. Yale now screens their providers beginning at age 70, and they have a program. UCSD [University of California, San Diego] has a program in place. Obviously, these institutions are looking at it. This is a very small part of the overall picture.

Health care systems overall, we’re talking about a fraction of them in the country are really addressing the issue of competency exams. The question is, where do we go from here? How do we get engagement or adoption and get physicians as a whole to embrace this concept?

Dr. Jauhar: The EEOC filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Yale medical staff that argued that Yale’s plan to do vision testing and neurocognitive screening – there may be a physical exam also – constitutes age discrimination because it’s reserved for doctors over the age of 70. Those are the physicians who are most likely to have cognitive impairment.

We have rules already for impaired physicians who are, for example, addicted to illicit drugs or have alcohol abuse. We already have some of those measures in place. This is focused on cognitive impairment in aging physicians because cognitive impairment is an issue that arises with aging. We have to be clear about that.

Most younger physicians will not have measurable cognitive impairment that would impair their ability to practice. To force young physicians (for example, physicians in their forties) to undergo such screening, all in the name of preventing age discrimination, doesn’t strike me as being a good use of resources. They’re more likely to be false positives, as you know from Bayesian statistics. When you have low pretest probability, you’re more likely to get false positives.

How are we going to screen hundreds of thousands of physicians? We have to make a choice about the group that really is more likely to benefit from such screening. Very few hospitals are addressing this issue and it’s going to become more important.

Dr. Glatter: Surgeons have been particularly active in pushing for age-based screening. In 2016, the American College of Surgeons started making surgeons at age 65-70 undergo voluntary health and neurocognitive assessments, and encouraged physicians to disclose any concerning findings as part of their professional obligation, which is pretty impressive in my mind.

Surgeons’ skill set is quite demanding physically and technically. That the Society of Surgical Chairs took it upon themselves to institute this is pretty telling.

Dr. Jauhar: The overall society called for screening, but then in a separate survey of surgical chairs, the idea was advanced that we should have mandatory retirement. Now, I don’t particularly agree with that.

I’ve seen it, where you have the aging surgeon who was a star in their day, and no one wants to say anything when their skills have visibly degraded, and no one wants to carry that torch and tell them that they need to retire. What happens is people whisper, and unfortunately, bad outcomes have to occur before people tend to get involved, and that’s what I’m trying to prevent.

Dr. Glatter: The question is whether older physicians have worse patient outcomes. The evidence is inconclusive, but studies have shown higher mortality rates for cardiovascular surgeons in terms of the procedures that they do. On the flip side, there are also higher mortality rates for GI surgery performed by younger surgeons. It’s a mixed bag.

Dr. Jauhar: For specialized surgery, you need the accrual of a certain amount of experience. The optimal age is about 60, because they’ve seen many things and they’ve seen complications. They don’t have a hand tremor yet so they’re still functioning well, and they’ve accrued a lot of experience. We have to be smart about who we screen.

There’s a learning curve in surgery. By no means am I arguing that younger surgeons are better surgeons. I would say that there’s probably a tipping point where once you get past a certain age and physical deterioration starts to take effect, that can overshadow the accrual of cognitive and surgical experience. We have to balance those things.

I would say neurocognitive screening and vision testing are important, but exactly what do you measure? How much of a hand tremor would constitute a risk? These things have to be figured out. I just want doctors to be leading the charge here and not have this imposed by bureaucrats.

Dr. Glatter: I was reading that some doctors have had these exams administered and they can really pass cognitive aspects of the exam, but there have been nuances in the actual practicing of medicine, day-to-day functioning, which they’re not good at.

Someone made a comment that the only way to know if a doctor can do well in practice is to observe their practice and observe them taking care of patients. In other words, you can game the system and pass the cognitive exam in some form but then have a problem practicing medicine.

Dr. Jauhar: Ultimately, outcomes have to be measured. We can’t adopt such a granular approach for every aging physician. There has to be some sort of screening that maybe raises a red flag and then hospitals and department chairs need to investigate further. What are the outcomes? What are people saying in the operating room? I think the screening is just that; it’s a way of opening the door to further investigation, but it’s not a witch hunt.

I have the highest respect for older physicians, and I learn from them every day, honestly, especially in my field (cardiology), because some of the older physicians can hear and see things on physical exam that I didn’t even know existed. There’s much to be learned from them.

This is not intended to be a witch hunt or to try to get rid of older physicians – by any means. We want to avoid some of the outcomes that I read about in the New York Times comments section. It’s not fair to our patients not to do at least some sort of screening to prevent those kinds of mistakes.

Dr. Glatter: I wanted to go back to data from Yale between October 2016 and January 2019, where 141 Yale clinicians who ranged in age from 69 to 92 years completed cognitive assessments. Of those, 18 clinicians, or about 13% of those tested, demonstrated cognitive deficits that were “deemed likely to impair their ability to practice medicine independently.” That’s telling. These are subtleties, but they’re important to identify. I would love to get your comment on that.

Dr. Jauhar: It’s in keeping with what we know about the proportion of our older citizens who have cognitive impairment. About 10% have dementia and about 20% have at least mild cognitive impairment. That’s in keeping with what we know, and this was a general screening.

There are certain programs, like in San Diego, for example, where physicians are referred, and so there’s a selection bias. But this was just general screening. It’s worrisome. I’m an aging physician myself. I want fairness in this process because I’m going to be assessed as well.

I just don’t really understand yet why there’s so much circling of the wagons and so much resistance. It seems like it would be good for physicians also to be removed from situations where they might get into potential litigation because of mistakes and physical or visual impairment. It seems like it’d be good for patients and physicians alike.

Dr. Glatter: It’s difficult to give up your profession, change fields, or become administrative at some point, and [decide] when to make that transition. As we all get older, we’re not going to have the ability to do what we did in our 20s, 30s, and so forth.

Dr. Jauhar: Much of the resistance is coming from doctors who are used to high levels of autonomy. I’m certainly sympathetic to that because I don’t want anyone telling me how to practice. The reason this is coming up and hasn’t come up in the past is not because of loss of autonomy but because of an actual demographic change. Many physicians were trained in the 1960s, ’70s, or ’80s. They’re getting to retirement age but they’re not retiring, and we can speculate as to why that is.

In America’s educational system, doctors incur a huge amount of debt. I know physicians who are still paying off their debt and they’re in their 50s and 60s, so I’m very sympathetic to that. I’m not trying to force doctors out of practicing. I just want whoever is practicing to be competent and to practice safely. We have to figure out how to do that.

Dr. Glatter: The fact that there is a shortage of physicians forecast in the next 10-15 years makes many physicians reluctant to retire. They feel like they want to be part of that support network and we don’t want to have a dire situation, especially in the rural areas. We’re not immune from aging. We’re human beings. We all have to realize that.

Dr. Jauhar: I know that the ACC is starting to debate this issue, in part because of my op-ed. My hope is that it will start a conversation and we will institute a plan that comes from physicians and serves our patients, and doesn’t serve some cottage industry of testing or serve the needs of insurers or bureaucrats. It has to serve the doctor-patient relationship.

Dr. Glatter: In some random surveys that I’ve read, up to 30%-40% of physicians do support some type of age-based screening or competency assessment. The needle’s moving. It’s just not there yet. I think that wider adoption is coming.

Dr. Jauhar: Data are coming as more hospitals start to adopt these late practitioner programs. Some of the data that came out of Yale, for example, are very important. We’re going to see more published data in this area, and it will clarify what we need to do and how big the problem is.

Dr. Glatter: I want to thank you again for your time and for writing the op-ed because it certainly was well read and opened the eyes of not only physicians, but also the public at large. It’s a conversation that has to be had. Thank you for doing this.

Dr. Jauhar: Thanks for inviting me, Robert. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Dr. Glatter is assistant professor of emergency medicine, department of emergency medicine, at Hofstra University, Hempstead, N.Y. Dr. Jauhar is director of the heart failure program, Long Island Jewish Medical Center, New Hyde Park, N.Y. Neither Dr. Glatter nor Dr. Jauhar reported any relevant conflicts of interest.

A version of this article first appeared on Medscape.com.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Robert D. Glatter, MD: Welcome. I’m Dr. Robert Glatter, medical advisor for Medscape Emergency Medicine. Joining me today is Sandeep Jauhar, a practicing cardiologist and professor of medicine at Northwell Health, a frequent New York Times op-ed contributor, and highly regarded author of the upcoming book “My Father’s Brain: Life in the Shadow of Alzheimer’s.”

We are here today to discuss the rationale for age competency exams for practicing physicians.

Sandeep Jauhar, MD: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Glatter: Your recent op-ed piece in the New York Times caught my eye. In your piece, you refer to a 2020 survey in which almost one-third of licensed doctors in the United States were 60 years of age or older, up from a quarter in 2010. You also state that, due to a 20% prevalence of mild cognitive impairment in persons older than 65, practicing physicians above this age should probably be screened by a battery of tests to ensure that their reasoning and cognitive abilities are intact. The title of the article is “How Would You Feel About a 100-Year-Old Doctor?”

How would you envision such a process? What aspects of day-to-day functioning would the exams truly be evaluating?

Dr. Jauhar: A significant number of people over 65 have measurable cognitive impairment. By cognitive impairment, we’re not talking about dementia. The best estimates are that 1 in 10 people over age 65 have dementia, and roughly 1 in 5 have what’s called MCI, or mild cognitive impairment, which is cognitive impairment out of proportion to what you’d expect from normal aging. It’s a significant issue.

The argument that I made in the op-ed is that neurocognitive assessment is important. That’s not to say that everyone over age 65 has significant cognitive impairment or that older doctors can’t practice medicine safely and effectively. They absolutely can. The question is, do we leave neurocognitive assessment to physicians who may possibly be suffering from impairment?

In dementia, people very often have impaired self-awareness, a condition called anosognosia, which is a neurological term for not being aware of your own impairment because of your impairment.

I would argue that, instead of having voluntary neurocognitive screening, it should be mandated. The question is how to do that effectively, fairly, and transparently.

One could argue a gerontocracy in medicine today, where there are so many older physicians. What do we do about that? That really is something that I think needs to be debated.

Dr. Glatter: The question I have is, if we (that is, physicians and the health care profession) don’t take care of this, someone’s going to do it for us. We need to jump on this now while we have the opportunity. The AMA has been opposed to this, except when you have reason to suspect cognitive decline or are concerned about patient safety. A mandatory age of retirement is certainly something they’re not for, and we know this.

Your argument in your op-ed piece is very well thought out, and you lay the groundwork for testing (looking at someone’s memory, coordination, processing speed, and other executive functions). Certainly, for a psychiatrist, hearing is important, and for a dermatologist, vision is important. For a surgeon, there are other issues. Based on the specialty, we must be careful to see the important aspects of functioning. I am sure you would agree with this.

Dr. Jauhar: Obviously, the hand skills that are important for ophthalmological surgery certainly aren’t required for office-based psychological counseling, for example. We have to be smart about how we assess impairment.

You describe the spectrum of actions. On the one hand, there’s mandatory retirement at the age of 65 or 70 years. We know that commercial pilots are mandated to essentially retire at 65, and air-traffic controllers must retire in their late 50s.

We know that there’s a large amount of variability in competence. There are internists in their 80s with whom I’ve worked, and I’m absolutely wowed by their experience and judgment. There are new medical resident graduates who don’t really seem to have the requisite level of competence that would make me feel comfortable to have them as my doctor or a doctor for a member of my family.

To mandate retirement, I think the AMA is absolutely right. To not call for any kind of competency testing, to me, seems equally unwise. Because at the end of the day, you have to balance individual physician needs or wants to continue practicing with patient safety. I haven’t really come across too many physicians who say, “There’s absolutely no need for a competency testing.”

We have to meet somewhere in the middle. The middle is either voluntary cognitive competency testing or mandatory. I would argue that, because we know that as the brain changes we have cognitive impairment, but we’re not always aware that we need help, mandatory testing is the way.

One other thing that you mentioned was about having the solution imposed on us. You and I are doctors. We deal with bureaucracy. We deal with poorly thought-out solutions to issues in health care that make our lives that much more difficult. I don’t want that solution imposed on us by some outside agency. I think we need to figure this out within medicine and figure out the right way of doing it.

The AMA is on board with this. They haven’t called for mandatory testing, but they have said that if testing were to occur, these are the guidelines. The guidelines are fair and equitable, not too time-consuming, transparent, and not punitive. If someone comes out and doesn’t test well, we shouldn’t force them out of the profession. We can find ways to use their experience to help train younger doctors, for example.

Dr. Glatter: I wanted to segue to an area where there has been some challenge to the legality of these mandatory types of age restrictions and imposing the exams as well. There’s been a lawsuit as well by the EEOC [Equal Employment Opportunity Commission], on behalf of Yale. Basically, there’s been a concern that ageism is part of what’s going on. Yale now screens their providers beginning at age 70, and they have a program. UCSD [University of California, San Diego] has a program in place. Obviously, these institutions are looking at it. This is a very small part of the overall picture.

Health care systems overall, we’re talking about a fraction of them in the country are really addressing the issue of competency exams. The question is, where do we go from here? How do we get engagement or adoption and get physicians as a whole to embrace this concept?

Dr. Jauhar: The EEOC filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Yale medical staff that argued that Yale’s plan to do vision testing and neurocognitive screening – there may be a physical exam also – constitutes age discrimination because it’s reserved for doctors over the age of 70. Those are the physicians who are most likely to have cognitive impairment.

We have rules already for impaired physicians who are, for example, addicted to illicit drugs or have alcohol abuse. We already have some of those measures in place. This is focused on cognitive impairment in aging physicians because cognitive impairment is an issue that arises with aging. We have to be clear about that.

Most younger physicians will not have measurable cognitive impairment that would impair their ability to practice. To force young physicians (for example, physicians in their forties) to undergo such screening, all in the name of preventing age discrimination, doesn’t strike me as being a good use of resources. They’re more likely to be false positives, as you know from Bayesian statistics. When you have low pretest probability, you’re more likely to get false positives.

How are we going to screen hundreds of thousands of physicians? We have to make a choice about the group that really is more likely to benefit from such screening. Very few hospitals are addressing this issue and it’s going to become more important.

Dr. Glatter: Surgeons have been particularly active in pushing for age-based screening. In 2016, the American College of Surgeons started making surgeons at age 65-70 undergo voluntary health and neurocognitive assessments, and encouraged physicians to disclose any concerning findings as part of their professional obligation, which is pretty impressive in my mind.

Surgeons’ skill set is quite demanding physically and technically. That the Society of Surgical Chairs took it upon themselves to institute this is pretty telling.

Dr. Jauhar: The overall society called for screening, but then in a separate survey of surgical chairs, the idea was advanced that we should have mandatory retirement. Now, I don’t particularly agree with that.

I’ve seen it, where you have the aging surgeon who was a star in their day, and no one wants to say anything when their skills have visibly degraded, and no one wants to carry that torch and tell them that they need to retire. What happens is people whisper, and unfortunately, bad outcomes have to occur before people tend to get involved, and that’s what I’m trying to prevent.

Dr. Glatter: The question is whether older physicians have worse patient outcomes. The evidence is inconclusive, but studies have shown higher mortality rates for cardiovascular surgeons in terms of the procedures that they do. On the flip side, there are also higher mortality rates for GI surgery performed by younger surgeons. It’s a mixed bag.

Dr. Jauhar: For specialized surgery, you need the accrual of a certain amount of experience. The optimal age is about 60, because they’ve seen many things and they’ve seen complications. They don’t have a hand tremor yet so they’re still functioning well, and they’ve accrued a lot of experience. We have to be smart about who we screen.

There’s a learning curve in surgery. By no means am I arguing that younger surgeons are better surgeons. I would say that there’s probably a tipping point where once you get past a certain age and physical deterioration starts to take effect, that can overshadow the accrual of cognitive and surgical experience. We have to balance those things.

I would say neurocognitive screening and vision testing are important, but exactly what do you measure? How much of a hand tremor would constitute a risk? These things have to be figured out. I just want doctors to be leading the charge here and not have this imposed by bureaucrats.

Dr. Glatter: I was reading that some doctors have had these exams administered and they can really pass cognitive aspects of the exam, but there have been nuances in the actual practicing of medicine, day-to-day functioning, which they’re not good at.

Someone made a comment that the only way to know if a doctor can do well in practice is to observe their practice and observe them taking care of patients. In other words, you can game the system and pass the cognitive exam in some form but then have a problem practicing medicine.

Dr. Jauhar: Ultimately, outcomes have to be measured. We can’t adopt such a granular approach for every aging physician. There has to be some sort of screening that maybe raises a red flag and then hospitals and department chairs need to investigate further. What are the outcomes? What are people saying in the operating room? I think the screening is just that; it’s a way of opening the door to further investigation, but it’s not a witch hunt.

I have the highest respect for older physicians, and I learn from them every day, honestly, especially in my field (cardiology), because some of the older physicians can hear and see things on physical exam that I didn’t even know existed. There’s much to be learned from them.

This is not intended to be a witch hunt or to try to get rid of older physicians – by any means. We want to avoid some of the outcomes that I read about in the New York Times comments section. It’s not fair to our patients not to do at least some sort of screening to prevent those kinds of mistakes.

Dr. Glatter: I wanted to go back to data from Yale between October 2016 and January 2019, where 141 Yale clinicians who ranged in age from 69 to 92 years completed cognitive assessments. Of those, 18 clinicians, or about 13% of those tested, demonstrated cognitive deficits that were “deemed likely to impair their ability to practice medicine independently.” That’s telling. These are subtleties, but they’re important to identify. I would love to get your comment on that.

Dr. Jauhar: It’s in keeping with what we know about the proportion of our older citizens who have cognitive impairment. About 10% have dementia and about 20% have at least mild cognitive impairment. That’s in keeping with what we know, and this was a general screening.

There are certain programs, like in San Diego, for example, where physicians are referred, and so there’s a selection bias. But this was just general screening. It’s worrisome. I’m an aging physician myself. I want fairness in this process because I’m going to be assessed as well.

I just don’t really understand yet why there’s so much circling of the wagons and so much resistance. It seems like it would be good for physicians also to be removed from situations where they might get into potential litigation because of mistakes and physical or visual impairment. It seems like it’d be good for patients and physicians alike.

Dr. Glatter: It’s difficult to give up your profession, change fields, or become administrative at some point, and [decide] when to make that transition. As we all get older, we’re not going to have the ability to do what we did in our 20s, 30s, and so forth.

Dr. Jauhar: Much of the resistance is coming from doctors who are used to high levels of autonomy. I’m certainly sympathetic to that because I don’t want anyone telling me how to practice. The reason this is coming up and hasn’t come up in the past is not because of loss of autonomy but because of an actual demographic change. Many physicians were trained in the 1960s, ’70s, or ’80s. They’re getting to retirement age but they’re not retiring, and we can speculate as to why that is.

In America’s educational system, doctors incur a huge amount of debt. I know physicians who are still paying off their debt and they’re in their 50s and 60s, so I’m very sympathetic to that. I’m not trying to force doctors out of practicing. I just want whoever is practicing to be competent and to practice safely. We have to figure out how to do that.

Dr. Glatter: The fact that there is a shortage of physicians forecast in the next 10-15 years makes many physicians reluctant to retire. They feel like they want to be part of that support network and we don’t want to have a dire situation, especially in the rural areas. We’re not immune from aging. We’re human beings. We all have to realize that.

Dr. Jauhar: I know that the ACC is starting to debate this issue, in part because of my op-ed. My hope is that it will start a conversation and we will institute a plan that comes from physicians and serves our patients, and doesn’t serve some cottage industry of testing or serve the needs of insurers or bureaucrats. It has to serve the doctor-patient relationship.

Dr. Glatter: In some random surveys that I’ve read, up to 30%-40% of physicians do support some type of age-based screening or competency assessment. The needle’s moving. It’s just not there yet. I think that wider adoption is coming.

Dr. Jauhar: Data are coming as more hospitals start to adopt these late practitioner programs. Some of the data that came out of Yale, for example, are very important. We’re going to see more published data in this area, and it will clarify what we need to do and how big the problem is.

Dr. Glatter: I want to thank you again for your time and for writing the op-ed because it certainly was well read and opened the eyes of not only physicians, but also the public at large. It’s a conversation that has to be had. Thank you for doing this.

Dr. Jauhar: Thanks for inviting me, Robert. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Dr. Glatter is assistant professor of emergency medicine, department of emergency medicine, at Hofstra University, Hempstead, N.Y. Dr. Jauhar is director of the heart failure program, Long Island Jewish Medical Center, New Hyde Park, N.Y. Neither Dr. Glatter nor Dr. Jauhar reported any relevant conflicts of interest.

A version of this article first appeared on Medscape.com.

This discussion was recorded on Aug. 31, 2022. This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Robert Glatter, MD: Welcome. I’m Dr. Robert Glatter, medical advisor for Medscape Emergency Medicine. Today we have Dr. Paul Christo, a pain specialist in the Division of Pain Medicine at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, and host of the national radio show Aches and Gains on SiriusXM Radio, joining us to discuss the ongoing and worsening fentanyl crisis in the U.S.

Welcome, Dr Christo.

Paul J. Christo, MD, MBA: Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Glatter: I want to begin with a sobering statistic regarding overdoses. There were over 107,000 overdose deaths in the U.S. from 2020 to 2021, of which over two thirds involved the synthetic opiate fentanyl, based on recent data from the CDC.

Let’s start by having you explain how deadly fentanyl is in terms of its potency compared with morphine and heroin.

Dr. Christo: Fentanyl is considered a synthetic opioid. It’s not a naturally occurring opioid like morphine, for example, or codeine. We use this drug, fentanyl, often in the anesthesia well. We’ve used it for many years as an anesthetic for surgery very safely. In the chronic pain world, we’ve used it to help reduce chronic pain in the form of a patch.

What we’re seeing now, though, is something entirely different, which is the use of synthetic fentanyl as a mind- and mood-altering substance for those who don’t have pain, and essentially those who are buying this off the street. Fentanyl is about 80-100 times more potent than morphine, so you can put that in perspective in terms of its danger.

Dr. Glatter: Let me have you take us through an evolution of the opioid crisis from the 1990s, from long-acting opioid OxyContin, which was approved in 1995, to where we are now. There are different phases. If you could, educate our audience on how we got to where fentanyl is now the most common opiate involved in drug overdoses.

Dr. Christo: It really stems from the epidemic related to chronic pain. We have over 100 million people in the United States alone who suffer from chronic pain. Most chronic pain, sadly, is undertreated or untreated. In the ‘90s, in the quest to reduce chronic pain to a better extent, we saw more and more literature and studies related to the use of opioids for noncancer pain (e.g., for lower back pain).

There were many primary care doctors and pain specialists who started using opioids, probably for patients who didn’t really need it. I think it was done out of good conscience in the sense that they were trying to reduce pain. We have other methods of pain relief, but we needed more. At that time, in the ‘90s, we had a greater use of opioids to treat noncancer pain.

Then from that point, we transitioned to the use of heroin. Again, this isn’t among the chronic pain population, but it was the nonchronic pain population that starting using heroin. Today we see synthetic fentanyl.
 

Addressing the synthetic opioid crisis

Dr. Glatter: With fentanyl being the most common opiate we’re seeing, we’re having problems trying to save patients. We’re trying to use naloxone, but obviously in increasing amounts, and sometimes it’s not adequate and we have to intubate patients.

In terms of addressing this issue of supply, the fentanyl is coming from Mexico, China, and it’s manufactured here in the United States. How do we address this crisis? What are the steps that you would recommend we take?

Dr. Christo: I think that we need to better support law enforcement to crack down on those who are manufacturing fentanyl in the United States, and also to crack down on those who are transporting it from, say, Mexico – I think it’s primarily coming from Mexico – but from outside the United States to the United States. I feel like that’s important to do.

Two, we need to better educate those who are using these mind- and mood-altering substances. We’re seeing more and more that it’s the young-adult population, those between the ages of 13 and 25, who are starting to use these substances, and they’re very dangerous.

Dr. Glatter: Are these teens seeking out heroin and it happens to be laced with fentanyl, or are they actually seeking pure fentanyl? Are they trying to buy the colorful pills that we know about? What’s your experience in terms of the population you’re treating and what you could tell us?

Dr. Christo: I think it’s both. We’re seeing young adults who are interested in the use of fentanyl as a mind- and mood-altering substance. We’re also seeing young and older adults use other drugs, like cocaine and heroin, that are laced with fentanyl, and they don’t know it. That’s exponentially more dangerous.

Fentanyl test strips

Dr. Glatter: People are unaware that there is fentanyl in what they’re using, and it is certainly leading to overdoses and deaths. I think that parents really need to be aware of this.

Dr. Christo: Yes, for sure. I think we need better educational methods in the schools to educate that population that we’re talking about (between the ages of 13 and 25). Let them know the dangers, because I don’t think they’re aware of the danger, and how potent fentanyl is in terms of its lethality, and that you don’t need very much to take in a form of a pill or to inhale or to inject intravenously to kill yourself. That is key – education at that level – and to let those who are going to use these substances (specifically, synthetic fentanyl) know that they should consider the use of fentanyl test strips.

Fentanyl test strips would be primarily used for those who are thinking that they’re using heroin but there may be fentanyl in there, or methamphetamine and there may be fentanyl, and they don’t know. The test strip gives them that knowledge.

The other harm reduction strategies would be the use of naloxone, known as Narcan. That’s a lifesaver. You just have to spritz it into the nostril. You don’t do it yourself if you’re using the substance, but you’ve got others who can do it for you. No question, that’s a lifesaver. We need to make sure that there’s greater availability of that throughout the entire country, and we’re seeing some of that in certain states. In certain states, you don’t need a prescription to get naloxone from the pharmacy.

Dr. Glatter: I think it’s so important that it should be widely available. Certainly, the COVID-19 pandemic exacerbated the number of overdoses we saw. Are overdoses coming down or are we still at a level that’s close to 2020?

Dr. Christo: Unfortunately, we’re still seeing the same level, if not seeing it escalate. Certainly, the pandemic, because of the economic cost associated with the pandemic – loss of employment, underemployment – as well as the emotional stress of the pandemic led many people to use substances on the street in order to cope. They’re coping mechanisms, and we really haven’t seen it abate quite yet.

Dr. Glatter: Do you have a message for the lawmakers on Capitol Hill as to what we can do regarding the illegal manufacturing and distribution, how we can really crack down? Are there other approaches that we could implement that might be more tangible?

Dr. Christo: Yes. No. 1 would be to support law enforcement. No. 2 would be to create and make available more overdose prevention centers. The first was in New York City. If you look at the data on overdose prevention centers, in Canada, for example, they’ve seen a 35% reduction in overdose deaths. These are places where people who are using can go to get clean needles and clean syringes. This is where people basically oversee the use of the drug and intervene if necessary.

It seems sort of antithetical. It seems like, “Boy, why would you fund a center for people to use drugs?” The data from Canada and outside Canada are such that it can be very helpful. That would be one of my messages to lawmakers as well.
 

Vaccines to combat the synthetic opioid crisis

Dr. Glatter: Do you think that the legislators could approach some of these factories as a way to crack down, and have law enforcement be more aggressive? Is that another possible solution?

Dr. Christo: It is. Law enforcement needs to be supported by the government, by the Biden administration, so that we can prevent the influx of fentanyl and other drugs into the United States, and also to crack down on those in the United States who are manufacturing these drugs – synthetic fentanyl, first and foremost – because we’re seeing a lot of deaths related to synthetic fentanyl.

Also, we’re seeing — and this is pretty intriguing and interesting – the use of vaccines to help prevent overdose. The first human trial is underway right now for a vaccine against oxycodone. Not only that, but there are other vaccines that are in animal trials now against heroin, cocaine, or fentanyl. There’s hope there that we can use vaccines to also help reduce deaths related to overdose from fentanyl and other opioids.

Dr. Glatter: Do you think this would be given widely to the population or only to those at higher risk?

Dr. Christo: It would probably be targeting those who are at higher risk and have a history of drug abuse. I don’t think it would be something that would be given to the entire population, but it certainly could be effective, and we’re seeing encouraging results from the human trial right now.

Dr. Glatter: That’s very intriguing. That’s something that certainly could be quite helpful in the future.

One thing I did want to address is law enforcement and first responders who have been exposed to dust, or inhaled dust possibly, or had fentanyl on their skin. There has been lots of controversy. The recent literature has dispelled the controversy that people who had supposedly passed out and required Narcan after exposure to intact skin, or even compromised skin, had an overdose of fentanyl. Maybe you could speak to that and dispel that myth.

Dr. Christo: Yes, I’ve been asked this question a couple of times in the past. It’s not sufficient just to have contact with fentanyl on the skin to lead to an overdose. You really need to ingest it. That is, take it by mouth in the form of a pill, inhale it, or inject it intravenously. Skin contact is very unlikely going to lead to an overdose and death.

Dr. Glatter: I want to thank you for a very informative interview. Do you have one or two pearls you’d like to give our audience as a takeaway?

Dr. Christo: I would say two things. One is, don’t give up if you have chronic pain because there is hope. We have nonopioid treatments that can be effective. Two, don’t give up if you have a substance use disorder. Talk to your primary care doctor or talk to emergency room physicians if you’re in the emergency room. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration is a good resource, too. SAMHSA has an 800 number for support and a website. Take the opportunity to use the resources that are available.

Dr. Glatter is assistant professor of emergency medicine at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City and at Hofstra University, Hempstead, N.Y. He is an editorial advisor and hosts the Hot Topics in EM series on Medscape. He is also a medical contributor for Forbes.

Dr. Christo is an associate professor and a pain specialist in the department of anesthesiology and critical care medicine at Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. He also serves as director of the multidisciplinary pain fellowship program at Johns Hopkins Hospital. Christo is the author of Aches and Gains, A Comprehensive Guide to Overcoming Your Pain, and hosts an award-winning, nationally syndicated SiriusXM radio talk show on overcoming pain, called Aches and Gains.

A version of this article first appeared on Medscape.com.

This discussion was recorded on Aug. 31, 2022. This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Robert Glatter, MD: Welcome. I’m Dr. Robert Glatter, medical advisor for Medscape Emergency Medicine. Today we have Dr. Paul Christo, a pain specialist in the Division of Pain Medicine at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, and host of the national radio show Aches and Gains on SiriusXM Radio, joining us to discuss the ongoing and worsening fentanyl crisis in the U.S.

Welcome, Dr Christo.

Paul J. Christo, MD, MBA: Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Glatter: I want to begin with a sobering statistic regarding overdoses. There were over 107,000 overdose deaths in the U.S. from 2020 to 2021, of which over two thirds involved the synthetic opiate fentanyl, based on recent data from the CDC.

Let’s start by having you explain how deadly fentanyl is in terms of its potency compared with morphine and heroin.

Dr. Christo: Fentanyl is considered a synthetic opioid. It’s not a naturally occurring opioid like morphine, for example, or codeine. We use this drug, fentanyl, often in the anesthesia well. We’ve used it for many years as an anesthetic for surgery very safely. In the chronic pain world, we’ve used it to help reduce chronic pain in the form of a patch.

What we’re seeing now, though, is something entirely different, which is the use of synthetic fentanyl as a mind- and mood-altering substance for those who don’t have pain, and essentially those who are buying this off the street. Fentanyl is about 80-100 times more potent than morphine, so you can put that in perspective in terms of its danger.

Dr. Glatter: Let me have you take us through an evolution of the opioid crisis from the 1990s, from long-acting opioid OxyContin, which was approved in 1995, to where we are now. There are different phases. If you could, educate our audience on how we got to where fentanyl is now the most common opiate involved in drug overdoses.

Dr. Christo: It really stems from the epidemic related to chronic pain. We have over 100 million people in the United States alone who suffer from chronic pain. Most chronic pain, sadly, is undertreated or untreated. In the ‘90s, in the quest to reduce chronic pain to a better extent, we saw more and more literature and studies related to the use of opioids for noncancer pain (e.g., for lower back pain).

There were many primary care doctors and pain specialists who started using opioids, probably for patients who didn’t really need it. I think it was done out of good conscience in the sense that they were trying to reduce pain. We have other methods of pain relief, but we needed more. At that time, in the ‘90s, we had a greater use of opioids to treat noncancer pain.

Then from that point, we transitioned to the use of heroin. Again, this isn’t among the chronic pain population, but it was the nonchronic pain population that starting using heroin. Today we see synthetic fentanyl.
 

Addressing the synthetic opioid crisis

Dr. Glatter: With fentanyl being the most common opiate we’re seeing, we’re having problems trying to save patients. We’re trying to use naloxone, but obviously in increasing amounts, and sometimes it’s not adequate and we have to intubate patients.

In terms of addressing this issue of supply, the fentanyl is coming from Mexico, China, and it’s manufactured here in the United States. How do we address this crisis? What are the steps that you would recommend we take?

Dr. Christo: I think that we need to better support law enforcement to crack down on those who are manufacturing fentanyl in the United States, and also to crack down on those who are transporting it from, say, Mexico – I think it’s primarily coming from Mexico – but from outside the United States to the United States. I feel like that’s important to do.

Two, we need to better educate those who are using these mind- and mood-altering substances. We’re seeing more and more that it’s the young-adult population, those between the ages of 13 and 25, who are starting to use these substances, and they’re very dangerous.

Dr. Glatter: Are these teens seeking out heroin and it happens to be laced with fentanyl, or are they actually seeking pure fentanyl? Are they trying to buy the colorful pills that we know about? What’s your experience in terms of the population you’re treating and what you could tell us?

Dr. Christo: I think it’s both. We’re seeing young adults who are interested in the use of fentanyl as a mind- and mood-altering substance. We’re also seeing young and older adults use other drugs, like cocaine and heroin, that are laced with fentanyl, and they don’t know it. That’s exponentially more dangerous.

Fentanyl test strips

Dr. Glatter: People are unaware that there is fentanyl in what they’re using, and it is certainly leading to overdoses and deaths. I think that parents really need to be aware of this.

Dr. Christo: Yes, for sure. I think we need better educational methods in the schools to educate that population that we’re talking about (between the ages of 13 and 25). Let them know the dangers, because I don’t think they’re aware of the danger, and how potent fentanyl is in terms of its lethality, and that you don’t need very much to take in a form of a pill or to inhale or to inject intravenously to kill yourself. That is key – education at that level – and to let those who are going to use these substances (specifically, synthetic fentanyl) know that they should consider the use of fentanyl test strips.

Fentanyl test strips would be primarily used for those who are thinking that they’re using heroin but there may be fentanyl in there, or methamphetamine and there may be fentanyl, and they don’t know. The test strip gives them that knowledge.

The other harm reduction strategies would be the use of naloxone, known as Narcan. That’s a lifesaver. You just have to spritz it into the nostril. You don’t do it yourself if you’re using the substance, but you’ve got others who can do it for you. No question, that’s a lifesaver. We need to make sure that there’s greater availability of that throughout the entire country, and we’re seeing some of that in certain states. In certain states, you don’t need a prescription to get naloxone from the pharmacy.

Dr. Glatter: I think it’s so important that it should be widely available. Certainly, the COVID-19 pandemic exacerbated the number of overdoses we saw. Are overdoses coming down or are we still at a level that’s close to 2020?

Dr. Christo: Unfortunately, we’re still seeing the same level, if not seeing it escalate. Certainly, the pandemic, because of the economic cost associated with the pandemic – loss of employment, underemployment – as well as the emotional stress of the pandemic led many people to use substances on the street in order to cope. They’re coping mechanisms, and we really haven’t seen it abate quite yet.

Dr. Glatter: Do you have a message for the lawmakers on Capitol Hill as to what we can do regarding the illegal manufacturing and distribution, how we can really crack down? Are there other approaches that we could implement that might be more tangible?

Dr. Christo: Yes. No. 1 would be to support law enforcement. No. 2 would be to create and make available more overdose prevention centers. The first was in New York City. If you look at the data on overdose prevention centers, in Canada, for example, they’ve seen a 35% reduction in overdose deaths. These are places where people who are using can go to get clean needles and clean syringes. This is where people basically oversee the use of the drug and intervene if necessary.

It seems sort of antithetical. It seems like, “Boy, why would you fund a center for people to use drugs?” The data from Canada and outside Canada are such that it can be very helpful. That would be one of my messages to lawmakers as well.
 

Vaccines to combat the synthetic opioid crisis

Dr. Glatter: Do you think that the legislators could approach some of these factories as a way to crack down, and have law enforcement be more aggressive? Is that another possible solution?

Dr. Christo: It is. Law enforcement needs to be supported by the government, by the Biden administration, so that we can prevent the influx of fentanyl and other drugs into the United States, and also to crack down on those in the United States who are manufacturing these drugs – synthetic fentanyl, first and foremost – because we’re seeing a lot of deaths related to synthetic fentanyl.

Also, we’re seeing — and this is pretty intriguing and interesting – the use of vaccines to help prevent overdose. The first human trial is underway right now for a vaccine against oxycodone. Not only that, but there are other vaccines that are in animal trials now against heroin, cocaine, or fentanyl. There’s hope there that we can use vaccines to also help reduce deaths related to overdose from fentanyl and other opioids.

Dr. Glatter: Do you think this would be given widely to the population or only to those at higher risk?

Dr. Christo: It would probably be targeting those who are at higher risk and have a history of drug abuse. I don’t think it would be something that would be given to the entire population, but it certainly could be effective, and we’re seeing encouraging results from the human trial right now.

Dr. Glatter: That’s very intriguing. That’s something that certainly could be quite helpful in the future.

One thing I did want to address is law enforcement and first responders who have been exposed to dust, or inhaled dust possibly, or had fentanyl on their skin. There has been lots of controversy. The recent literature has dispelled the controversy that people who had supposedly passed out and required Narcan after exposure to intact skin, or even compromised skin, had an overdose of fentanyl. Maybe you could speak to that and dispel that myth.

Dr. Christo: Yes, I’ve been asked this question a couple of times in the past. It’s not sufficient just to have contact with fentanyl on the skin to lead to an overdose. You really need to ingest it. That is, take it by mouth in the form of a pill, inhale it, or inject it intravenously. Skin contact is very unlikely going to lead to an overdose and death.

Dr. Glatter: I want to thank you for a very informative interview. Do you have one or two pearls you’d like to give our audience as a takeaway?

Dr. Christo: I would say two things. One is, don’t give up if you have chronic pain because there is hope. We have nonopioid treatments that can be effective. Two, don’t give up if you have a substance use disorder. Talk to your primary care doctor or talk to emergency room physicians if you’re in the emergency room. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration is a good resource, too. SAMHSA has an 800 number for support and a website. Take the opportunity to use the resources that are available.

Dr. Glatter is assistant professor of emergency medicine at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City and at Hofstra University, Hempstead, N.Y. He is an editorial advisor and hosts the Hot Topics in EM series on Medscape. He is also a medical contributor for Forbes.

Dr. Christo is an associate professor and a pain specialist in the department of anesthesiology and critical care medicine at Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. He also serves as director of the multidisciplinary pain fellowship program at Johns Hopkins Hospital. Christo is the author of Aches and Gains, A Comprehensive Guide to Overcoming Your Pain, and hosts an award-winning, nationally syndicated SiriusXM radio talk show on overcoming pain, called Aches and Gains.

A version of this article first appeared on Medscape.com.

This discussion was recorded on Aug. 31, 2022. This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Robert Glatter, MD: Welcome. I’m Dr. Robert Glatter, medical advisor for Medscape Emergency Medicine. Today we have Dr. Paul Christo, a pain specialist in the Division of Pain Medicine at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, and host of the national radio show Aches and Gains on SiriusXM Radio, joining us to discuss the ongoing and worsening fentanyl crisis in the U.S.

Welcome, Dr Christo.

Paul J. Christo, MD, MBA: Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Glatter: I want to begin with a sobering statistic regarding overdoses. There were over 107,000 overdose deaths in the U.S. from 2020 to 2021, of which over two thirds involved the synthetic opiate fentanyl, based on recent data from the CDC.

Let’s start by having you explain how deadly fentanyl is in terms of its potency compared with morphine and heroin.

Dr. Christo: Fentanyl is considered a synthetic opioid. It’s not a naturally occurring opioid like morphine, for example, or codeine. We use this drug, fentanyl, often in the anesthesia well. We’ve used it for many years as an anesthetic for surgery very safely. In the chronic pain world, we’ve used it to help reduce chronic pain in the form of a patch.

What we’re seeing now, though, is something entirely different, which is the use of synthetic fentanyl as a mind- and mood-altering substance for those who don’t have pain, and essentially those who are buying this off the street. Fentanyl is about 80-100 times more potent than morphine, so you can put that in perspective in terms of its danger.

Dr. Glatter: Let me have you take us through an evolution of the opioid crisis from the 1990s, from long-acting opioid OxyContin, which was approved in 1995, to where we are now. There are different phases. If you could, educate our audience on how we got to where fentanyl is now the most common opiate involved in drug overdoses.

Dr. Christo: It really stems from the epidemic related to chronic pain. We have over 100 million people in the United States alone who suffer from chronic pain. Most chronic pain, sadly, is undertreated or untreated. In the ‘90s, in the quest to reduce chronic pain to a better extent, we saw more and more literature and studies related to the use of opioids for noncancer pain (e.g., for lower back pain).

There were many primary care doctors and pain specialists who started using opioids, probably for patients who didn’t really need it. I think it was done out of good conscience in the sense that they were trying to reduce pain. We have other methods of pain relief, but we needed more. At that time, in the ‘90s, we had a greater use of opioids to treat noncancer pain.

Then from that point, we transitioned to the use of heroin. Again, this isn’t among the chronic pain population, but it was the nonchronic pain population that starting using heroin. Today we see synthetic fentanyl.
 

Addressing the synthetic opioid crisis

Dr. Glatter: With fentanyl being the most common opiate we’re seeing, we’re having problems trying to save patients. We’re trying to use naloxone, but obviously in increasing amounts, and sometimes it’s not adequate and we have to intubate patients.

In terms of addressing this issue of supply, the fentanyl is coming from Mexico, China, and it’s manufactured here in the United States. How do we address this crisis? What are the steps that you would recommend we take?

Dr. Christo: I think that we need to better support law enforcement to crack down on those who are manufacturing fentanyl in the United States, and also to crack down on those who are transporting it from, say, Mexico – I think it’s primarily coming from Mexico – but from outside the United States to the United States. I feel like that’s important to do.

Two, we need to better educate those who are using these mind- and mood-altering substances. We’re seeing more and more that it’s the young-adult population, those between the ages of 13 and 25, who are starting to use these substances, and they’re very dangerous.

Dr. Glatter: Are these teens seeking out heroin and it happens to be laced with fentanyl, or are they actually seeking pure fentanyl? Are they trying to buy the colorful pills that we know about? What’s your experience in terms of the population you’re treating and what you could tell us?

Dr. Christo: I think it’s both. We’re seeing young adults who are interested in the use of fentanyl as a mind- and mood-altering substance. We’re also seeing young and older adults use other drugs, like cocaine and heroin, that are laced with fentanyl, and they don’t know it. That’s exponentially more dangerous.

Fentanyl test strips

Dr. Glatter: People are unaware that there is fentanyl in what they’re using, and it is certainly leading to overdoses and deaths. I think that parents really need to be aware of this.

Dr. Christo: Yes, for sure. I think we need better educational methods in the schools to educate that population that we’re talking about (between the ages of 13 and 25). Let them know the dangers, because I don’t think they’re aware of the danger, and how potent fentanyl is in terms of its lethality, and that you don’t need very much to take in a form of a pill or to inhale or to inject intravenously to kill yourself. That is key – education at that level – and to let those who are going to use these substances (specifically, synthetic fentanyl) know that they should consider the use of fentanyl test strips.

Fentanyl test strips would be primarily used for those who are thinking that they’re using heroin but there may be fentanyl in there, or methamphetamine and there may be fentanyl, and they don’t know. The test strip gives them that knowledge.

The other harm reduction strategies would be the use of naloxone, known as Narcan. That’s a lifesaver. You just have to spritz it into the nostril. You don’t do it yourself if you’re using the substance, but you’ve got others who can do it for you. No question, that’s a lifesaver. We need to make sure that there’s greater availability of that throughout the entire country, and we’re seeing some of that in certain states. In certain states, you don’t need a prescription to get naloxone from the pharmacy.

Dr. Glatter: I think it’s so important that it should be widely available. Certainly, the COVID-19 pandemic exacerbated the number of overdoses we saw. Are overdoses coming down or are we still at a level that’s close to 2020?

Dr. Christo: Unfortunately, we’re still seeing the same level, if not seeing it escalate. Certainly, the pandemic, because of the economic cost associated with the pandemic – loss of employment, underemployment – as well as the emotional stress of the pandemic led many people to use substances on the street in order to cope. They’re coping mechanisms, and we really haven’t seen it abate quite yet.

Dr. Glatter: Do you have a message for the lawmakers on Capitol Hill as to what we can do regarding the illegal manufacturing and distribution, how we can really crack down? Are there other approaches that we could implement that might be more tangible?

Dr. Christo: Yes. No. 1 would be to support law enforcement. No. 2 would be to create and make available more overdose prevention centers. The first was in New York City. If you look at the data on overdose prevention centers, in Canada, for example, they’ve seen a 35% reduction in overdose deaths. These are places where people who are using can go to get clean needles and clean syringes. This is where people basically oversee the use of the drug and intervene if necessary.

It seems sort of antithetical. It seems like, “Boy, why would you fund a center for people to use drugs?” The data from Canada and outside Canada are such that it can be very helpful. That would be one of my messages to lawmakers as well.
 

Vaccines to combat the synthetic opioid crisis

Dr. Glatter: Do you think that the legislators could approach some of these factories as a way to crack down, and have law enforcement be more aggressive? Is that another possible solution?

Dr. Christo: It is. Law enforcement needs to be supported by the government, by the Biden administration, so that we can prevent the influx of fentanyl and other drugs into the United States, and also to crack down on those in the United States who are manufacturing these drugs – synthetic fentanyl, first and foremost – because we’re seeing a lot of deaths related to synthetic fentanyl.

Also, we’re seeing — and this is pretty intriguing and interesting – the use of vaccines to help prevent overdose. The first human trial is underway right now for a vaccine against oxycodone. Not only that, but there are other vaccines that are in animal trials now against heroin, cocaine, or fentanyl. There’s hope there that we can use vaccines to also help reduce deaths related to overdose from fentanyl and other opioids.

Dr. Glatter: Do you think this would be given widely to the population or only to those at higher risk?

Dr. Christo: It would probably be targeting those who are at higher risk and have a history of drug abuse. I don’t think it would be something that would be given to the entire population, but it certainly could be effective, and we’re seeing encouraging results from the human trial right now.

Dr. Glatter: That’s very intriguing. That’s something that certainly could be quite helpful in the future.

One thing I did want to address is law enforcement and first responders who have been exposed to dust, or inhaled dust possibly, or had fentanyl on their skin. There has been lots of controversy. The recent literature has dispelled the controversy that people who had supposedly passed out and required Narcan after exposure to intact skin, or even compromised skin, had an overdose of fentanyl. Maybe you could speak to that and dispel that myth.

Dr. Christo: Yes, I’ve been asked this question a couple of times in the past. It’s not sufficient just to have contact with fentanyl on the skin to lead to an overdose. You really need to ingest it. That is, take it by mouth in the form of a pill, inhale it, or inject it intravenously. Skin contact is very unlikely going to lead to an overdose and death.

Dr. Glatter: I want to thank you for a very informative interview. Do you have one or two pearls you’d like to give our audience as a takeaway?

Dr. Christo: I would say two things. One is, don’t give up if you have chronic pain because there is hope. We have nonopioid treatments that can be effective. Two, don’t give up if you have a substance use disorder. Talk to your primary care doctor or talk to emergency room physicians if you’re in the emergency room. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration is a good resource, too. SAMHSA has an 800 number for support and a website. Take the opportunity to use the resources that are available.

Dr. Glatter is assistant professor of emergency medicine at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City and at Hofstra University, Hempstead, N.Y. He is an editorial advisor and hosts the Hot Topics in EM series on Medscape. He is also a medical contributor for Forbes.

Dr. Christo is an associate professor and a pain specialist in the department of anesthesiology and critical care medicine at Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. He also serves as director of the multidisciplinary pain fellowship program at Johns Hopkins Hospital. Christo is the author of Aches and Gains, A Comprehensive Guide to Overcoming Your Pain, and hosts an award-winning, nationally syndicated SiriusXM radio talk show on overcoming pain, called Aches and Gains.

A version of this article first appeared on Medscape.com.